As you might know, Team Emerald, the 25-person Naxxramus team led by Cannonfodder (Ye Olde Geezers) and Subcool (Ye Olde Geezers), has been experimenting over the last few weeks with a different set of looting rules than currently employed by default in The Honourbound Alliance. That system is called Suicide Kings. Cannonfodder and others are interested in entering into a dialogue about the advantages and disadvantages of Suicide Kings versus our current loot rules with the idea of promoting the adoption of Suicide Kings across all of THB.

Some people might confuse Suicide Kings with DKP, another looting system commonly employed by dedicated raiding guilds. The following post from Phoebus (Roses of Dawn) attempts to describe the two systems and compare them. I've had his permission to re-post it. I've edited it to improve readability and English slightly.

Please feel free to post your own thoughts on Suicide Kings and our current "rolling by role" rules.

Elsheindra

Hello everyone,

Figured it might be a good idea to spread some information about some different looting-systems than the regular rolls. Because it seems not everyone is fully aware how those add-ons work.

First of I would like to note that I've now worked with both DKP and Suicide Kings. That said, I think Suicide Kings works fine for a social raiding environment. Also I must add that people seem to dislike DKP for the wrong reasons or make it out to be worse then it really is. I'll try to be to the point and explain it as well as I can, bearing in mind that I will probably miss a lot of points. Hopefully other people can add those!! And also I hope we can have a fun discussion about this subject!

ok, here goes:

Suicide Kings:

Basically you have a list of 25 people (or more depending on the raid setup): The person highest on the list gets the item when s/he bids (so you don't have to be Nr1.—just the highest bidding on an item during that particular time. So for instance: Spot 5 wins over spot 12 etc.).

The winner then drops totally to the bottom of the list. To get higher on the list again other people need to bid on items, which make them drop to the bottom and in such a way elevate you up again.

We noted that if people don't show up, and other people keep biding, you get to the first spot without raiding and without putting effort in. This can be countered by dropping you a few places if you don't show up for a given number of raids. Besides that: people that don't come often have less items to bid on (like your chance on getting items with "normal /rolls" gets smaller when you aren't raiding as much). So in effect also less items.

The plus side is that you can save up for "that one item" you really want to have. And even if you are on the bottom of the list, you know exactly where you stand. So no unlucky /rolls for weeks. At some point you WILL be the highest bidder again.

At first I thought Suicide Kings might not be handy for people that still need more gear. But, as people who have more gear already don't bid on most items, you don't actually have to be that high on the list to win. And in Team Emerald the lesser-geared people are comming along nicely with new items.

A downside is that you dont have much control yourself on which spot you are on the list. Other people bidding on items makes you get higher on the list; it's not you putting in more effort that gives you a better spot.

DKP

Especially that last comment I made in the Suicide Kings section above is what sets DKP apart from it. With DKP you can influence your own position.

Basically you get points for every raid you join. If you bid on items you need to use those points to pay for your item. The highest "bidder" wins.

Example: Person 1 has 80 DKP saved up and Person 2 has 90 DKP saved up.

An item drops that both of them can use. Usually the bidding starts at 10 DKP. The more you want the item, the more you wish to bid your points on it. "Person 1" can bid up to 80 of his earned DKP and "Person 2" 90. Technically speaking, if Person 2 thinks that particular item is worth his 90 DKP he can outbid "Person 1" and win.

Does this make it unfair to people who raid less? Yes and no. Of course people who raid more, as with Suicide Kings, have more items in the first place and therefore need to bid/pay more of their saved points (so have less DKP). As soon as an item gets less "rare" the DKP amount needed for that item drops dramatically.

For example: When I joined Nefarious I almost had no DKP at all. Other people had over 1000 DKP. BUT those people where also fully geared. Meaning I could get a lot of stuff for just 10 DKP because they didn't need it anymore anyway. Furthermore, once we downed a new boss, people were bidding against each other with VERY high numbers—in effect, like with Suicide Kings, bidding themselves to the bottom of the list. So in that respect it's VERY similar to Suicide Kings.

This means that, like with Suicide Kings, you usually have 1 chance to bid on "that best drop" before you plummet down to the bottom whether it's DKP points of your spot on the Suicide Kings list. My point is that having lots of DKP OR being on top of the Suicide Kings list isnt THAT much of a difference.

DKP is more flexible though. You don't HAVE to bid all your points, while with Suicide Kings you drop to the bottom straight away. With DKP its also easier to save your own points for later on, and your own effort gives you more points, not the people around you bidding on items and therefore dropping themselves down on a list, elevating you up. DKP is easier to save. Let's say you raid for 3 months straight during a 60-month period and then you take a break for the other 3 months. Your 3 months earn you a lot of DKP.

Now someone else in that same period of time only raids on the weekends, BUT for the full 6-month period. In essence, the first person doing the full 3 months has put in more hours, but leaves before the 6 months are over. Whereas the guy only playing during weekends saves less DKP but stays longer. With DKP the "3-month guy" would have an advantage. With Suicide Kings, the "weekend" guy would have an advantage.

Why? Well the guy playing for 3 months can't save more on Suicide Kings than the nr.1 spot (assuming he didn't bid on an item) which he will lose after not playing for 3 months or after bidding on 1 item (making him drop down again). Whereas with DKP he clearly puts more raiding time in than the other person, and therefore probably has more saved DKP points when he comes back again. On the other hand, "the weekend guy" probably had ample opportunity to get more items while Person 1 was away.

My conclusion

One system isn't more fair or less fair then the other. What is true in my opinion is that you know exactly where you stand when bidding is concerned, making it impossible to not get items for a long time due to bad rolls.

Also, both systems are not bad for newcomers. DKP is also nice for long-saving veterans. I need to stress here that in my opinion longer playing characters with DKP doesn't hinder the progress of new players comming in using DKP or Suicide Kings.

Both systems are also easy to use. It's only the raidleader or lootmaster who needs to put some effort in it organising it.

My recommendation: is Suicide Kings. It's the most open bidding system, and suits the social raiding we are doing the best. What it does do is spread the loot over the whole raid in a fair way.

Regards,
Phoeb (SHAMMMYY POWWWAAAHHH!!!!)